It's so interesting to learn how the term queer evolved in the English-speaking world. I'm from France and the word has recently been imported. I just had a conversation with my brother about the word because he asked me whether I considered gay people as part as "queer". I had to explain to him that I would not use that word because it was originally a slur and it's too broad a term now to be useful. Also, a lot of things wrong with the queer movement. To him, it was just another way to say LGBTQ.
What's funny is, in a way, he is queer. He's a straight man who was gender non-conforming from a young age and still is. We actually thought he'd be gay growing up. He's been victim of homophobic slurs before. But he would never use the term for himself because cis-het privileged stupid labels...
I think it seems there are some differences between male and female behavior on AVERAGE. But what is average for a population says nothing about what a particular individual may be like! men and women, boys and girls must be given the opportunity to be who we are, no matter what that is, and that means freeing us of the burdens of assumptions while also being honest and positive when any kind of trait comes forward. Something may be usual or unusual for your sex and that is ok!
my experiences also lead me to think most people are bisexual. I absolutely loved hearing that heterosexuals are okay with homosexual attraction/behavior as long as it’s understood as NOT SERIOUS — i have always felt that way ! they resent us homos sometimes for taking the whole thing too far and ruining their extracurricular activities ! And our existence complicates any worldview.
i loved the discussion too of homophobia as separate from and related to misogyny. disgust is a part of sexuality — we have all experienced sexual disgust, as well as being mystified by the sexual interest of someone else. in that sense homophobia is natural (though what one does with emotions of disgust is another story).
Glad you liked it. I think most homophobia comes down to what I've always called "the ick factor". Homosexual sex grosses straight people out and that's why they don't like gay folks. Never does it occur to them that their sex grosses us out too. :)
I first encountered queer in 1990 in Australia. It was the mixed sex kinky arty effed up people. I thought it was a better option for me than the regular lesbian venue. I didn't engage with some of the more effed people and things that went on. But I did go to the parties and hung out with women who produced a sex/ art magazine. One of them transitioned and that was when I became a trans ally. That was the first time I knew a trans identified person and I supported them. There were a few TIMs and TIFs around.
At the time only the paedophile discussion bothered me. I knew of one woman who was very into kink and supported paedophiles. I never spoke to her for that reason, but my TIF friend just accepted her choices and that really bothered me.
You are the 2nd person from Australia to say they encountered it that early. I wonder what was going on over there? I’m sure San Francisco was the same. Big cities and a different world.
I'm English and lived in Sydney 1989-1991. It was very different to London. There were a lot more opposite sex attracted trans identified people around, but maybe because of the aforementioned queer scene I had got to know.
Back in England I was involved in a lesbian group. We let in males with a 2 to 1 vote in favour. There weren't many problems, and the 2 I know of were caused by older men who were almost certainly fetishists.
The centre where this group was now doesn't have ANY single sex groups. They have stated they will not work with any single sex groups. Lesbians in London and around England are having to organise privately again, so that the spaces can be female only.
I'm now trans exclusionary regarding lesbian space. I personally wouldn't attend or organise a group that let males in.
Homonormativity to a queer marxist is a same sex couple engaging in the capiralist system. Queer marxism is a perpetual struggle agianst “norms” and or the “capitalist” system.
Some women actually like “girly” things (dolls, pink, etc). As a teen in ‘64 the Beatles came on the scene. Maybe you’ve seen the films of screaming girls? Made no sense to me? I would never swoon, scream. Very strange and perplexing. Thought I heard Toy’s are Us doing away with heavy gendering sections?
Or even drag shows or Pose on TV. Some watch that stuff but no thanks from me. I figure trans guys just like to femme it up but many more women do too.
The issue isn’t that some girls or women like “girly things” it’s that those things are categorized as “girly things”. My son loved pink, sparkles and unicorns when he was a kid. He had a pink unicorn rainbow lunch bag for several years in elementary school. This lunch bag would be called a girls lunch box. Why? And why did I worry that he would be picked on for having that lunch box? This is what pisses me off.
It's so interesting to learn how the term queer evolved in the English-speaking world. I'm from France and the word has recently been imported. I just had a conversation with my brother about the word because he asked me whether I considered gay people as part as "queer". I had to explain to him that I would not use that word because it was originally a slur and it's too broad a term now to be useful. Also, a lot of things wrong with the queer movement. To him, it was just another way to say LGBTQ.
What's funny is, in a way, he is queer. He's a straight man who was gender non-conforming from a young age and still is. We actually thought he'd be gay growing up. He's been victim of homophobic slurs before. But he would never use the term for himself because cis-het privileged stupid labels...
AMAZING CONVERSATION! Thank you both.
I think it seems there are some differences between male and female behavior on AVERAGE. But what is average for a population says nothing about what a particular individual may be like! men and women, boys and girls must be given the opportunity to be who we are, no matter what that is, and that means freeing us of the burdens of assumptions while also being honest and positive when any kind of trait comes forward. Something may be usual or unusual for your sex and that is ok!
my experiences also lead me to think most people are bisexual. I absolutely loved hearing that heterosexuals are okay with homosexual attraction/behavior as long as it’s understood as NOT SERIOUS — i have always felt that way ! they resent us homos sometimes for taking the whole thing too far and ruining their extracurricular activities ! And our existence complicates any worldview.
i loved the discussion too of homophobia as separate from and related to misogyny. disgust is a part of sexuality — we have all experienced sexual disgust, as well as being mystified by the sexual interest of someone else. in that sense homophobia is natural (though what one does with emotions of disgust is another story).
thank you!
Glad you liked it. I think most homophobia comes down to what I've always called "the ick factor". Homosexual sex grosses straight people out and that's why they don't like gay folks. Never does it occur to them that their sex grosses us out too. :)
Great conversation! Thank you.
I first encountered queer in 1990 in Australia. It was the mixed sex kinky arty effed up people. I thought it was a better option for me than the regular lesbian venue. I didn't engage with some of the more effed people and things that went on. But I did go to the parties and hung out with women who produced a sex/ art magazine. One of them transitioned and that was when I became a trans ally. That was the first time I knew a trans identified person and I supported them. There were a few TIMs and TIFs around.
At the time only the paedophile discussion bothered me. I knew of one woman who was very into kink and supported paedophiles. I never spoke to her for that reason, but my TIF friend just accepted her choices and that really bothered me.
You are the 2nd person from Australia to say they encountered it that early. I wonder what was going on over there? I’m sure San Francisco was the same. Big cities and a different world.
I'm English and lived in Sydney 1989-1991. It was very different to London. There were a lot more opposite sex attracted trans identified people around, but maybe because of the aforementioned queer scene I had got to know.
Back in England I was involved in a lesbian group. We let in males with a 2 to 1 vote in favour. There weren't many problems, and the 2 I know of were caused by older men who were almost certainly fetishists.
The centre where this group was now doesn't have ANY single sex groups. They have stated they will not work with any single sex groups. Lesbians in London and around England are having to organise privately again, so that the spaces can be female only.
I'm now trans exclusionary regarding lesbian space. I personally wouldn't attend or organise a group that let males in.
Homonormativity to a queer marxist is a same sex couple engaging in the capiralist system. Queer marxism is a perpetual struggle agianst “norms” and or the “capitalist” system.
Queer is a far left ideology. Look into Queer Marxism - Anyone can be queer now
Some women actually like “girly” things (dolls, pink, etc). As a teen in ‘64 the Beatles came on the scene. Maybe you’ve seen the films of screaming girls? Made no sense to me? I would never swoon, scream. Very strange and perplexing. Thought I heard Toy’s are Us doing away with heavy gendering sections?
Or even drag shows or Pose on TV. Some watch that stuff but no thanks from me. I figure trans guys just like to femme it up but many more women do too.
The issue isn’t that some girls or women like “girly things” it’s that those things are categorized as “girly things”. My son loved pink, sparkles and unicorns when he was a kid. He had a pink unicorn rainbow lunch bag for several years in elementary school. This lunch bag would be called a girls lunch box. Why? And why did I worry that he would be picked on for having that lunch box? This is what pisses me off.