Oh my goodness, I am so glad you talked about the sexual expectations for butches. The other podcasts talk like the "thrust impulse" is inherent to butchness.
I'm grateful sex changed for me in my midlife. Because when I unpacked it, so to speak, the reason I was the primary "giver" was because I was raised in a strict evangelical household where I was taught that my body could only serve for the pleasure of others. So the expectation was my body was supposed to be for a man's pleasure, but I carried that mentality into my lesbian relationship. Thank goodness I worked through that. But again, in my 20s and 30s, I thought I had this innate desire to only pleasure someone else. Honestly, penetrative sex is where it's at for me. And I'm like 9/10 on the Loulan Butch Scale. That's TMI but I get a little frustrated we are mostly hearing the "Stone Butch" explanation for sex for butches and I'm here to tell y'all there's more to life.
Great podcast, as usual. Thanks for taking the time to talk about this.
Your comment reminds me of something I heard somewhere and repeat to myself often, “if you feel a certain way about something, chances are others do too”. We sometimes get caught in this idea that our feelings or desires are unique, when in fact they are probably painful average.
I use to think that the “thrust instinct” was so abnormal then one day my wife put it so simply for me, “we are all just horny animals, of course we want to grind all over each other”. I honestly don’t know how other women experience their sexuality unless they tell me.
Fact is, we are making a lot of assumptions based on what is considered socially acceptable in our culture with very little actual proof of what people experience with their sexuality . Women’s sexuality is very ignorant ground.
That comment of your wife made me chuckle. Thrusting can be very exciting. And yes, women's sexuality as it really is is terra incognita for many because dominant cultural narratives don't show it to us. The ridiculous depictions of female orgasms (like on Outlander, where she makes pretty little moans, or all the movies that have women automatically coming from PIV) have miseducated generations of women, and led to more faked orgasms than anyone could ever count.
Well, that was refreshing. I was really getting fed up with some recent pods that insisted on narrowly defining butch in terms of butch-femme sex/attraction—and only that. And telling everyone else to use "masc." Nunh-uh, and not only because I don't like using "masc," or being told what to call myself, period. Look, I came of age on the cusp of "old gay" and lesbian feminism. I remember how rigid the codes enforcing butch-femme could be. The old bar dyke who told me and my first girlfriend, "Never seen two rugged ones together."
My old family friend who told me of visits to lesbian bars in Chicago, where women demand to know, "Are you butch or femme?" And she answered, in a low sultry voice, "I dunno. Which do you prefer?" She was lovers with my high school gym teacher, and after they broke up, they had sex one last time, after which G. told her she couldn't respect her anymore—for having sex with her! Some butches actually did try to enforce the patriarchal double standard. Not good.
While I appreciate R's point that what two women do together is not the same as what men and women do, she has embraced a strict and narrow idea of what butches can be. Butch for butch is a real thing, don't I know it. And while she may puzzle about who gets to be the thruster or wear the strap, ultimate definers of butch in her worldview, lesbian sexuality is far more expansive than that. There's glorious tribadizing, and women who don't like being penetrated (what about survivors, who abound among lesbians?), and butches who do enjoy it, so they have told me, some of them right there in bed.
If butch-femme rings your bell, go for it. It does have a long history; but it's also all straight men think lesbians can be ("Which one of you is the man?" he asks, fantasizing madly all the while.) I have no eagerness to go back to the old rigidities, nor the newer ones either. Be yourself, or rather discover yourself, as we all discard the social pressures pulling us this way and that. But to my mind butch cannot be reduced to a single model of sexual behavior, while ruling out how we inhabit our bodies, our manner, speech, dress, and how we move in the world.
Thank you for speaking on this topic. I’ve heard various perspectives of this as a butch woman myself. I think butch can be at least loosely defined like you pointed out. As far as the more intricate “rules” about being butch, I see it as different dialects. There isn’t a correct way to be butch. But you do have to meet certain criteria. For example, being a lesbian. There are more of course. At the end of the day it’s exclusively an identity for butch lesbians. I don’t like how it’s being used by males who transition and still like women. What would they know about being forced/expected to be feminine? Or about being homosexual? Nothing.
Late to the discussion—I have just now finished listening to the episode! Really really good episode. There's one thing that I don't see hinted at all in here but is quite prominent in some spaces. I believe everyone here is discussing based on the shared assumption that a butch is a lesbian. However, I have encountered hostility elsewhere when defining a butch as a masculine lesbian, because in doing so I exclude butch women who are also attracted to men. Obviously there's plenty of masculine women who are bisexual or straight; some of them are much more butch (as in, more masculine) than some butch lesbians are. But can a bisexual woman be a butch? Is "gatekeeping" bisexual women from the butch label on the same level as saying, "You can only be a butch if you don't like receiving"?
Yeah, I’ve heard some lesbians include bi women in the butch category. I think like with this whole discussion that each woman will kind of have her own definition because it’s not something you can clearly define. I think most people do believe that a butch is a lesbian and not bi.
I define a butch as a masculine lesbian. Even then, what counts as masculine? It’s enough to make you just want to chuck labels right out the door.
Thank you so much Carol, i really love your perspective and your open approach to ideas. Thank you for clearly defining terms as you’re using them and also for pointing out that identity is important, not just BS for the brainwashed. And also thank you for raising that language changes depending on location and era, sometimes quite a lot.
where did you read about butches and femmes switching roles for going out in public? very interesting!
i COMPLETELY agree that many butches prefer to give rather than receive particularly in the dating phase, and sometimes once you become closer with your partner, you become comfortable with receiving ! I have always understood myself similarly to this, and i know others who do also.
I was obsessed with being a tomboy growing up and very very attached to the label and distinguishing myself from girly girls. I wore my hair long (mom’s rule) and was fine with dresses, but hated other trappings or stereotypes of femininity like makeup, squeamishness, weakness, pink, and as i grew up, the cut of women’s pants and shirts. (I now absolutely love pink, but most of the other things i originally disliked about hyper-femininity i still don’t like.) from a young age, i was made fun of and considered very weird , but i didn’t really feel bad about that emotionally until puberty, when the social expectations of outgrowing tomboyishness truly set in. I tried femininity for a long time and it seemed i could never do it right and it also never made me feel confident. Instead i felt vulnerable and like a mess tbh.
To me a butch is the woman who’s immediately known as a lesbian where ever she goes, no matter how she may or may not try to hide it. And this doesn’t mean it’s a costume. Like you said, it’s primarily a personality.
I don’t remember exactly where I read about the role/ clothing switch between lesbians. I remember it struck me as very interesting because I would not want to wear a dress! Lol
I think a lot of women can be suspected of being lesbian and not be butch. So don’t know if I agree with that definition. But again, I don’t believe “butch” can be clearly defined.
I agree, i understand the over correcting. It’s why other opinions can be helpful. I think if you don’t want identity to mean that much to you age need not stand in the way. Ultimately I think for all of us identity should be held loosely.
I think some of us get protective of the label “butch” because we feel it’s nothing we can opt out of so if someone comes along and starts playing at being “masculine” for fun it gets kinda annoying. Perhaps that’s why some women try to define it strictly. I understand why they want to but for me I just don’t think it can be strictly defined.
Oh my goodness, I am so glad you talked about the sexual expectations for butches. The other podcasts talk like the "thrust impulse" is inherent to butchness.
I'm grateful sex changed for me in my midlife. Because when I unpacked it, so to speak, the reason I was the primary "giver" was because I was raised in a strict evangelical household where I was taught that my body could only serve for the pleasure of others. So the expectation was my body was supposed to be for a man's pleasure, but I carried that mentality into my lesbian relationship. Thank goodness I worked through that. But again, in my 20s and 30s, I thought I had this innate desire to only pleasure someone else. Honestly, penetrative sex is where it's at for me. And I'm like 9/10 on the Loulan Butch Scale. That's TMI but I get a little frustrated we are mostly hearing the "Stone Butch" explanation for sex for butches and I'm here to tell y'all there's more to life.
Great podcast, as usual. Thanks for taking the time to talk about this.
Your comment reminds me of something I heard somewhere and repeat to myself often, “if you feel a certain way about something, chances are others do too”. We sometimes get caught in this idea that our feelings or desires are unique, when in fact they are probably painful average.
I use to think that the “thrust instinct” was so abnormal then one day my wife put it so simply for me, “we are all just horny animals, of course we want to grind all over each other”. I honestly don’t know how other women experience their sexuality unless they tell me.
Fact is, we are making a lot of assumptions based on what is considered socially acceptable in our culture with very little actual proof of what people experience with their sexuality . Women’s sexuality is very ignorant ground.
That comment of your wife made me chuckle. Thrusting can be very exciting. And yes, women's sexuality as it really is is terra incognita for many because dominant cultural narratives don't show it to us. The ridiculous depictions of female orgasms (like on Outlander, where she makes pretty little moans, or all the movies that have women automatically coming from PIV) have miseducated generations of women, and led to more faked orgasms than anyone could ever count.
Well, that was refreshing. I was really getting fed up with some recent pods that insisted on narrowly defining butch in terms of butch-femme sex/attraction—and only that. And telling everyone else to use "masc." Nunh-uh, and not only because I don't like using "masc," or being told what to call myself, period. Look, I came of age on the cusp of "old gay" and lesbian feminism. I remember how rigid the codes enforcing butch-femme could be. The old bar dyke who told me and my first girlfriend, "Never seen two rugged ones together."
My old family friend who told me of visits to lesbian bars in Chicago, where women demand to know, "Are you butch or femme?" And she answered, in a low sultry voice, "I dunno. Which do you prefer?" She was lovers with my high school gym teacher, and after they broke up, they had sex one last time, after which G. told her she couldn't respect her anymore—for having sex with her! Some butches actually did try to enforce the patriarchal double standard. Not good.
While I appreciate R's point that what two women do together is not the same as what men and women do, she has embraced a strict and narrow idea of what butches can be. Butch for butch is a real thing, don't I know it. And while she may puzzle about who gets to be the thruster or wear the strap, ultimate definers of butch in her worldview, lesbian sexuality is far more expansive than that. There's glorious tribadizing, and women who don't like being penetrated (what about survivors, who abound among lesbians?), and butches who do enjoy it, so they have told me, some of them right there in bed.
If butch-femme rings your bell, go for it. It does have a long history; but it's also all straight men think lesbians can be ("Which one of you is the man?" he asks, fantasizing madly all the while.) I have no eagerness to go back to the old rigidities, nor the newer ones either. Be yourself, or rather discover yourself, as we all discard the social pressures pulling us this way and that. But to my mind butch cannot be reduced to a single model of sexual behavior, while ruling out how we inhabit our bodies, our manner, speech, dress, and how we move in the world.
Thank you so much for this reply !
Well said! Thank you for your input. I agree 100%
Thank you for speaking on this topic. I’ve heard various perspectives of this as a butch woman myself. I think butch can be at least loosely defined like you pointed out. As far as the more intricate “rules” about being butch, I see it as different dialects. There isn’t a correct way to be butch. But you do have to meet certain criteria. For example, being a lesbian. There are more of course. At the end of the day it’s exclusively an identity for butch lesbians. I don’t like how it’s being used by males who transition and still like women. What would they know about being forced/expected to be feminine? Or about being homosexual? Nothing.
Totally.
Late to the discussion—I have just now finished listening to the episode! Really really good episode. There's one thing that I don't see hinted at all in here but is quite prominent in some spaces. I believe everyone here is discussing based on the shared assumption that a butch is a lesbian. However, I have encountered hostility elsewhere when defining a butch as a masculine lesbian, because in doing so I exclude butch women who are also attracted to men. Obviously there's plenty of masculine women who are bisexual or straight; some of them are much more butch (as in, more masculine) than some butch lesbians are. But can a bisexual woman be a butch? Is "gatekeeping" bisexual women from the butch label on the same level as saying, "You can only be a butch if you don't like receiving"?
Yeah, I’ve heard some lesbians include bi women in the butch category. I think like with this whole discussion that each woman will kind of have her own definition because it’s not something you can clearly define. I think most people do believe that a butch is a lesbian and not bi.
I define a butch as a masculine lesbian. Even then, what counts as masculine? It’s enough to make you just want to chuck labels right out the door.
Thank you so much Carol, i really love your perspective and your open approach to ideas. Thank you for clearly defining terms as you’re using them and also for pointing out that identity is important, not just BS for the brainwashed. And also thank you for raising that language changes depending on location and era, sometimes quite a lot.
where did you read about butches and femmes switching roles for going out in public? very interesting!
i COMPLETELY agree that many butches prefer to give rather than receive particularly in the dating phase, and sometimes once you become closer with your partner, you become comfortable with receiving ! I have always understood myself similarly to this, and i know others who do also.
I was obsessed with being a tomboy growing up and very very attached to the label and distinguishing myself from girly girls. I wore my hair long (mom’s rule) and was fine with dresses, but hated other trappings or stereotypes of femininity like makeup, squeamishness, weakness, pink, and as i grew up, the cut of women’s pants and shirts. (I now absolutely love pink, but most of the other things i originally disliked about hyper-femininity i still don’t like.) from a young age, i was made fun of and considered very weird , but i didn’t really feel bad about that emotionally until puberty, when the social expectations of outgrowing tomboyishness truly set in. I tried femininity for a long time and it seemed i could never do it right and it also never made me feel confident. Instead i felt vulnerable and like a mess tbh.
To me a butch is the woman who’s immediately known as a lesbian where ever she goes, no matter how she may or may not try to hide it. And this doesn’t mean it’s a costume. Like you said, it’s primarily a personality.
I don’t remember exactly where I read about the role/ clothing switch between lesbians. I remember it struck me as very interesting because I would not want to wear a dress! Lol
I think a lot of women can be suspected of being lesbian and not be butch. So don’t know if I agree with that definition. But again, I don’t believe “butch” can be clearly defined.
definitely agreed that lots of different kinds of women can be perceived as gay
I agree, i understand the over correcting. It’s why other opinions can be helpful. I think if you don’t want identity to mean that much to you age need not stand in the way. Ultimately I think for all of us identity should be held loosely.
I think some of us get protective of the label “butch” because we feel it’s nothing we can opt out of so if someone comes along and starts playing at being “masculine” for fun it gets kinda annoying. Perhaps that’s why some women try to define it strictly. I understand why they want to but for me I just don’t think it can be strictly defined.
I appreciate your opinion ;)